JIM NORTON INTERVIEWS BLACK SABBATH DRUMMER BILL WARD

(On July 26th, 2005, Jim Norton and I headed down to PNC BANK Arts Center in Holmdel, New Jersey to see OZZFEST, but more importantly, we were there to conduct one-on-one interviews will three members of BLACK SABBATH. This day was months in the making, and required input from a number of people to pull the strings necessary to bring this together. Jim and I were escorted to 'Sabbath Village', a small section of fenced-off trailers behind the stage where Bill Ward, Geezer Butler, and Tony Iommi have their own seperate air conditioned trailers. You have to understand that Black Sabbath are Jim Norton's heroes, and have been for thirty some odd years. We set it up so Jim was going to have one-on-one interviews with each member of Sabbath (except for Ozzy, who didn't arrive until later), so this HAD to go perfectly. If it didn't, I risked having my face bitten by a mushy little comedian. We were greeted by Bill's assistant Walter, climbed aboard Bill's trailer, and chatted it up for a good half hour...and it went something like this...

Jim Norton: While drummers John Bonham and Keith Moon were certainly great, I always felt that you were just as good as they were and that you should have gotten just many accolades for your skills. However, because BLACK SABBATH was a much darker band than LED ZEPPELIN, you were not given the proper attention. How do you feel about that?

Bill Ward: I'm okay with the events that have happened. I think that Moon was an exceptional drummer because he was kind of like the one and only, the way that he was. And as far as I am concerned, John Bonham wrote the book on a lot of the drum music we hear today. I thought his tempos were immaculate. They were totally on. If I had to do any comparisons, my tempos were not on at all. They're quite the opposite, I think, for me. In fact, we were talking about this the other day. In early Sabbath, it was quite ragged. Kind of murky (laughs) and there's incomplete drum rolls and things like that.

Jim Norton: One of my favorite things is a live version of War Pigs from 1970 in Paris with the original lyrics. The best drumming I have ever heard. It was just raw and angry.

Bill Ward: Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that and I appreciate your first comments as well. Very much so. You know it's real weird, I have always regarded John Bonham as a percussionist and a drummer, and I've had a difficult time throughout my entire career excepting myself as a drummer. I like to apply drums to Black Sabbath music [laughs]...Maybe, that's a cop out. It's kind of twisted around for me. I have a tough time accepting the full responsibility as a 'drummer' because I never quite know what I am going to do. For instance, this evening's show, I don't know what I'm going to play. I know that I 'm going to react to the music, I have a kind of pretty good idea of what I'm gonna do, but I'm never sure of what's exactly gonna happen. So, I have no predicability, I just have reaction.

Jim Norton: I love to watch the old stuff from the '70's when you had long hair and a beard. It was always great to watch Ozzy, Tony and Geezer, but I always liked when they would show you because you were there just shirtless [and playing like an] animal. I just wished there had been more footage. I could have watched you playing drums the entire time. How does it feel to know that everybody here wants to be like you?

Bill Ward: Well, it's very complimentary. I just got finished talking with the drummer from Shadows Fall, who won two great awards this year for his drumming and for his recording of the new Shadows Fall album. I enjoy being around other percussionists and I do receive compliments from them. In the sense that they listened to me and so on and so forth, but I see them as very much individual people. If I was able to influence them in some way, then that's an honor for me. I try to be as humble as I can be about that. I'm just happy to see them progressing into new fantastic areas of drumming. I think we have so many good drummers now and there's so much good drumming now. There's been an incredible development in drumming in the last 40 years.

Jim Norton: Did you ever think that 37 years later you would be headlining a sold out festival? Are you surprised that it's lasted this long?

Bill Ward: Yeah, I am. I'm amazed that I'm still alive to be honest with you. It's kind of like any day above ground [laughs]....I have a good hindsight of how things were for us before, cause that was the experience before, I'm talking about the 1970's. And now, in the last seven years or so, it's almost like doing this, but doing it more of a grown up way or in a more experienced way. A lot of the things which were important, say when I was 19 or 20, were sex, drugs and rock n' roll. You know, that's where it was at that point. These days, it's more like 'Hmmm, I wonder if I can achieve that new drum lick?' So, back then I was also wondering if I can achieve that new drum lick. But now, achieving that new drum lick kind of has precedence over sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

Jim Norton: I never had the sex, drugs and rock n' roll, unfortunately. It seems nice though...

Bill Ward: Well the sex, drugs and rock n' roll kind of put me in a one way jacket, you know? It didn't work out at all. But, it took me a few years to understand that. So, it's a different outlook, you know? Personally, I think that all of us, Tony, Geezer, myself and Oz, I think we're playing better now than we've ever played before. There's much more of a maturity and we've all just experienced a lot more now.

Jim Norton: Can I just compliment you on the set list? "N. I. B.", "Symptom Of The Universe", "Sleeping Village", "Dirty Women", "Electric Funeral". A lot of stuff I have never seen [played] live. Did you guys decide to do something [different for this tour]?

Bill Ward: Well, it came from the popular vote. In other words, everybody that listens to Black Sabbath [laughs]. For the last few years, we were getting a lot of e-mail. It wasn't negative e-mail, it's always very positive, saying 'Hey, play something different guys,' you know? And of course we don't have anything new right now at least to play. So, we tried to make sure that we could at least try some different things to see that point go better with our audiences.

Jim Norton: A musician once said that when you listen to Black Sabbath at a party, it was never background music. People would stop their conversation and listen to it. I'm a comedian and use "A National Acrobat" as my intro music. One of the best riffs ever done by any band. It's amazing! That or "Under The Sun". There's nothing that you guys don't do that isn't good. Does the band shy away from doing the more obscure songs because you're afraid that sometimes the fans won't recognize it?

Bill Ward: Well, you mentioned "Under The Sun" and during rehearsals we were actually rehearsing that one. We were trying it out. We had it to follow the introduction of "Symptom Of The Universe". So, we were actually going to drop into "Under the Sun", but we changed that out and decided to go into "Sweet Leaf" and then "Electric Funeral". I think sometimes we primarily pick what might work for all of us and then we hope that our fans will like what we do. So that's kind of a secondary thing and I hope I don't sound condescending when I say that, but we try to do what will work primarily for us.

Jim Norton: On your official website, BillWard.com, you have an online blog where you post about what's been happening on the tour. How often do you write there and what do you discuss?

Bill Ward: I did one Sunday night. We talk about anything from bad food on the road to what's a good Vegan restaurant. We talk about meeting some of the guys, the other musicians. If I had a problem with the sound, I will talk about it; anything that really comes to mind. My last one was about three days ago and I think I will probably do another audio in four or five days time.

Jim Norton: As a musician, do you have times when you say to yourself 'I know I had an off night'?

Bill Ward: Oh yeah, definitely! But, you know, just talking for myself as a percussionist, I get to try and recover from it by the next song. I think that's one of the toughest things is to...okay...move on...forget it....you've screwed it up...you know you've screwed it up, but now move on and recover from that. So, you just have to give 120% in the next song that comes up. I think that's not always easy cause sometimes you know if you're tired or you didn't eat or the sound quality might be poor because of the stage or whatever, it's not always easy to do a fast recovery and get to your 120%. Sometimes you just have to hang tough and get through the gig.

(Buckle up, kids...this is the part where Jimmy really buries his nose in Bill's butt)
Jim Norton: I know you have your own radio show and you have very eclectic taste. I would love to a radio shift with you on the Boneyard, which is XM Satellite Radio's heavy metal station, you could pick and play what ever you wanted to...

Bill Ward: That sounds very cool. Yeah. I would be open minded to spin some things or do some things. Definitely. I appreciate that.

Jim Norton: So when are you finished with the tour?

Bill Ward: I think we're supposed to finish on September 5th at West Palm Beach. That's if a hurricane doesn't come in. Last time, we weren't able to play West Palm Beach because a hurricane came in. We're hoping to be hurricane free. So, September the 5th we finish. The plan is to go back to the West coast for a little while or head back to New York. I just have to figure out what our next moves are from that point.

Jim Norton: Any solo material coming out?

Bill Ward: Yes. I am going to try my very best to finish up the last mixes that I have of my record. I'll be so happy when it's done [laughs] because it's taken so long and I've already moved [on] to new work. So, it's like 'oh God, let's finish this up,' you know? But, I think I've just become a perfectionist with it and it's becoming painful now in the sense of like you know what? 'This album's already done. It's finished, so let it come out Bill.' So, sometimes I can let my own idiosyncrasies and my own defects really delay things.

Jim Norton: Have you ever looked back at a piece of work and wished that you could fix it, but it's done and already out there?

Bill Ward: Yes, I am still doing that with Sabbath stuff. There's one song, "Who Are You?" I want to correct the drumming on it. In fact, if I ever got the chance [laughs] I would love to re-record the drumming on it because it didn't turn out quite the way [I would have liked it to].

Jim Norton: What are you talking about? That song is fantastic. It's on Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with that song. (That's it, Jim. Ask the man for his opinion and then tell him he's wrong when he gives it to you.)

Bill Ward: That's a good example of wanting to...how long has it been since that album came out? 30 years?

Jim Norton: '74!

Bill Ward: '74? [laughs] and every once in a while I'm still like, 'man, I wish we could re-record that.' You know? I am still not settled with that one. So, that's an example of things that are finished and already out [that I wish I could fix].

Jim Norton: Is there any one song that you are particularly proud of? More so than anything else?

Bill Ward: Well, I like a lot of the work that I did on Master of Reality, . I really like that album. I think that one is kind of a peak where it shows the first five years of Black Sabbath. Even though that's the third album, the band had been playing since '68. It kind of reached a time when there were so many tours under our belt at that point and we had already recorded two other albums at the time. I think that album was a really good album in the sense that it captured a time in which the band were doing everything together, literally. We were eating together, sleeping together and playing on the road constantly.

Jim Norton: Is that back in the days when you would have four guys on one bus?

Bill Ward: Or four guys in one bed sometimes. We were still sharing rooms. I shared the room with Ozzy, of course. You can't have all the luck. So, Master of Reality, I rather like some the things that I played on that one.

Jim Norton: Well, you guys are playing four songs off that album: "After Forever", "Children Of The Grave", "Sweet Leaf" and "Into The Void". It's so great to hear you performing "Into The Void".

Bill Ward: Yeah, I really like that song a lot. I love playing it live.

Jim Norton: I know you have to get ready for the show. I can't tell you how happy I was when they said that you would sit down with us and talk. I don't know if you know how much people still love what it is that you do.

Bill Ward: Well, I think that's beautiful. I appreciate being able to have a chat and stuff. You know, it's a good thing. Very nice.

Jim Norton: Don't forget guys, Bill Ward.com!

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Steve C, Bill Ward, and a VERY HAPPY Jim Norton in Sabbath Village... (After Jim and I finished with the segment for the radio show, we all shot the shit for a little while afterwards, and got to speak with Bill a little more about his radio show, the record business, his favorite music, and other assorted fanboy questions)

Steve C: So, what's your radio show like? I hear you would like to move to satellite?

Bill Ward: We'd like to move towards that, yeah. I'd like to move to it on the basis that I wouldn't lose any integrity...I like the integrity of my show.

Steve C: Do you want to program the whole thing?

Bill Ward: Well, I like to pick all my music. I like to play my own music, pick my own bands. But, I choose music that I really, really like and that's the joy that I get. But at the same, in the integrity of it, I allow myself to go anywhere that I want to go and especially with interviews or if I am interviewing different artists. I like to do obituaries or if something happened politically that I need to make comment on. More so, we do a lot things for the troops and people that are getting killed out there. I make a lot of comments, which they are not necessarily unpatriotic, but sometimes I make a stand and I will stand where I stand, you know? So, there are things that I like to do.

Steve C: [Satellite's] a pretty free format. You can pretty much do whatever you want.

Bill Ward: I break new bands. Probably 70% of the music that I play is hardcore/metal. Most of the bands on Ozzfest now. I play these bands on a regular basis. I've been playing them for two to three years. So, a lot of these bands are not new to me at all. But, I also like to play classic rock. I like to balance it so everything fits. My show is two hours, so I have a lot of room. I have a lot of flexibility. We've been doing college radio for about three-and-a-half, maybe four years now and we really like that. We can't use profanity. You know what? I don't like using profanity. The only regret that I have is that I can't play some [Marilyn] Manson songs because of the profanity. He's got such good music. Personally, I don't like all [the profanity] because it's just overdone. You can still have a pretty good rock n' roll show without all this swearing. It's a taste call. It's whatever anyone wants to do with it.

Steve C: The music business climate has changed so much since you first started. If you were 20 years old now, would you attempt to try and make a living in this business now?

Bill Ward: Oh probably because Black Sabbath did it anyway. We rocked it in a van and didn't have anything. We were starving anyway.

Steve C: Yes, but right now there's even less of a chance that these new bands are going to make any money.

Bill Ward: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. We do talk about that on the show. We do touch on that quite often, you know depending on who the interview might be. I try to dig deep. I don't like this 'So when's the next tour? Did you shag Mary last night?' I couldn't give a crap. I like to go way, way, way down.

Steve C: Today the riches and the fame aren't really there for these new bands. Well, maybe a little bit if fame, but no wealth to speak of.

Bill Ward: I walk a fine line in the sense that I have to be respectful of the major companies, but it's common knowledge that most bands have to make their own CD's. They're doing great artwork. There is so much good stuff out there and they'll produce it on the streets. So, it's all out there and it has been for a number of years, as you know. There's lots and lots of ways where music can still have it's artistic self and not have to be...I hate sometimes when I see the younger bands when they are signed on for one album and if they don't make the cut, they're kicked out. Unfortunately, it's not like the Ma and Pa companies, like back in the '60's where it seemed like it was warmer, I don't know. At the same time, when I say I walk a fine line, I don't want to be condescending or disrespectful to companies that are extremely successful and kind of like moguls.

Steve C: I've spoken with a lot of artists about this stuff and it's like opening up a vein especially when discussing the major labels.

Bill Ward: It's touchy to most musicians that have been signed to major labels and may have run into problems, whatever they may be. I know that there are assholes everywhere. I also know some very nice people at Sony.

Steve C: Well, of course I am not saying to condemn everyone....

Jim Norton: The Writ what a great song.

Bill Ward: The Writ, a good example of shit happens. That's a perfect example of....

Jim Norton: Such a great parting shot that was. Such a great statement.

Bill Ward: You needed all the ferociousness in the song and the anger too because that really hurt. It was typical of 'another band bites the dust.' In that case, Sabbath was absolutely being taken for a ride.

Jim Norton: You guys did some great work even after 1979. One of my favorite songs musically was "Falling Off The Edge Of The World". I am a big Ozzy fan, but Dio did some great stuff too.

Bill Ward: Yeah Ronnie's done some fabulous stuff, I think. He's great.

Jim Norton: He's a very mystical guy. He seems to like to write about that stuff.

Bill Ward: When we pull out of it tonight, one of the songs that we play, actually we haven't played it in recent days, we play Rainbow. Rainbow Rising.

Jim Norton: We'd love to hear "It's Alright". Why don't they let you sing one? "Solitude" right?

Bill Ward: No, no...that's Oz. I always kind of shy away. If I had my own band, then I would do it. With the Sabs, Oz is the man up on the stage.

Jim Norton: I could tell you a few hardcores would weep with joy if that happened.

Bill Ward: [Laughs] Did you hear GUNS N' ROSES did a version of that?

Jim Norton: Really? I didn't hear it.

Bill Ward: I thought they did a really good version too. They did a live version of "It's Alright".

Jim Norton: There's a video for that song too. From some British TV show.

___________________________________________________________ (A little later in the afternoon, Bill caught up with Jim and I to correct something he had told us in the initial interview. He actually was obsessing over an answer he didn't feel was accurate! It's nice to know that even rock stars can obsess over the little stuff too)

Jim Norton: Once again we're here with the great Bill Ward outside at Sabbath Village at Ozzfest

Bill Ward: Earlier in the interview we were talking about "Into The Void" and I said that we were not playing that and there was no reason for that, but that was bullshit. We do have reason for not playing Into The Void tonight. Because we're doing back to back gigs, we tend to tighten up the show a little bit and it works out a little bit better for the band. So that's what going on.

Jim Norton: So "Into The Void" is coming out and it's basically a timing decision.

Bill Ward: As matter of fact, tonight I don't know if we're actually playing it. We may actually play it tonight. But on the last two shows this weekend, we didn't play it. So, hopefully we will reinstate it into the show within the next couple of shows. I just wanted to clear that up.

(That was a wet dream for Jim Norton, in case you didn't realize. Imagine the ONE unattainable person you would love to meet, even just get a handshake with...now imagine sitting across from that person for a good half hour conducting an in-depth interview. Pretty cool, right? I have to give extra thanks to Kevin from Sanctuary Records, Bill's manager Liese, and Adam from Jagermeister for helping me to get this interview to happen. Of course, thanks to our own FoundryMusicDana for transcribing this sucker)

CLICK HERE TO LISTEN TO THE AUDIO VERSION OF THIS INTERVIEW